| Is nitrogen packed plastic containers the way to go |
Date: July 11, 1997 09:25 PM
Author: Arnold Jagt(ajagt@entrewave.com)
I saw a guy demo a vacuum based system with plastic bags. If the idea is too keep oxygen out and away from the stored food then I suppose nitrogen and vacuum are the two choices.
The advantage I saw with the vacuum pack is that you can revauum the bag and then seal it again.
My wife is worried about having to use a whole container once it has been opened.
Arnold
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Date: July 12, 1997 07:28 PM
Author: Grant Swafford(gswafford@msn.com)
Subject: CO2 Purging instead of nitrogen
A while back I read an article dealing with long term food storage. The gist of it was that your main enemy is the small insects that are mixed in with the food. What nitrogen and co2 purging does is suffocate and kill the bugs (over time.) Co2 purging can be easily accomplished with 5 gallon buckets (with intact lids and seals) and blocks of dry ice. You fill the bucket almost full, push a one pound block of dry ice in flush with the top, lightly place the lid on top of the food and ice and wait. When the dry ice vapors coming out of the bucket are almost gone you seal up the bucket. The co2 will displace the air in the bucket (being heavier than air. I have tried this and it does work. The problem I see with the vacuum pack method is that it does not get rid of the oxygen that the insects live on.
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Date: July 16, 1997 09:25 AM
Author: Bill Webert(webert01@hotmail.com)
Subject: What foods require CO2 processing?
I assume that with grains (wheat,rice,millet), it is important to store using either nitrogen or the co2 procedure, since the meal worms/bugs would readily be found in this type of food. But what about beans (soy,pinto,red)? Is it necessary to displace oxygen with these items?
Also, a friend (sorry,this is second hand) uses bay leaves in the 5 gallon buckets: puts a layer down first, fills half the bucket with dry grains/beans, puts down another layer of bay leaves, fills the bucket, and tops it off with a third layer.
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Date: July 18, 1997 11:46 AM
Author: Al Durtschi(mark@waltonfeed.com)
Subject: Storing beans for long term storage
It is a good idea to store whole beans in the absence of oxygen also as the oxygen in the air after a few years will harden the fatty acids in the beans and they will not get soft when cooked. You will then have to grind them to make them useful.
Al
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Date: July 18, 1997 10:40 PM
Author: George Willaims(concerned_2@hotmail.com)
Subject: Walton Feed...beans...oxygen
Hi Al. I'm wondering if Walton Feed packs their beans in oxygen. If not oxygen, then how do you pack them (say, in the super pails).
George
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Date: July 21, 1997 12:50 PM
Author: Al Durtschi(mark@waltonfeed.com)
Walton Feed, and most of the other food storage companies pack their beans (and other foods as well) in the absence of oxygen. Air is made up of about 21% oxygen, and this oxygen can slowly, over months and years, oxidize the foods destroying their nutritive value and flavor. If you remove the oxygen, the deterioration of the food is greatly retarded. There are two ways that food storage companies accomplish this. And you can store your own food the same ways if you choose to do it yourself.
Air is made up of:
Nitrogen: 78% (Completely inert gas)
Oxygen: 21%
Argon: almost 1% (Completely inert gas)
Oxygen absorbers are put in the bucket or can before they are sealed. From the above you can see if the oxygen is removed, the only thing left will be nitrogen and a bit of argon. Be aware that as the oxygen is being absorbed, no gasses are replaced so there is a partial vacuum created. Your container will need to be able to handle this and not let any more air into the container. If there is a leak, the oxygen in the air that is sucked in will slowly load your oxygen absorbers and your product will no longer be oxygen free.
When using oxygen absorber packets, Walton's uses cans or buckets with a mylar inner bag. The mylar bag has 12 layers of different plastics and foils. It is light/moisture/air proof when heat sealed shut. If you wanted to go this route on preserving food yourself these bags are obtainable.
Al
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Date: August 08, 1997 11:34 PM
Author: Will Richards(will_richards@hotmail.com)
Subject: Bags
Al, I am trying to find an wholesale oulet for bags. Can you help? I know you work for Waltons and they have them, but i can not afford retail prices on this project unless there is no other way. Thxs Will
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Date: July 23, 1997 09:10 PM
Author: Ralph(rph@hotmail.com)
Subject: buckets
What about varmit or rodent damage with the plastic buckets? I have have seen old empty birdseed buckets that squirrles have gnawed on just becasue they seem to like them!
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=637)
Date: July 25, 1997 11:45 AM
Author: Al Durtschi(mark@waltonfeed.com)
Subject: Critters chewing on those buckets...
Those critters may be chewing on the buckets, but you should be somewhat happy to learn that we at Walton Feed haven't heard of one account of where they actually chewed through one. If you know of one (as anything in life is possible) I'd love to hear it.
Al
See http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs/vi-c.html
for a listing of food storage companies.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=675)
Date: July 25, 1997 11:59 AM
Author: Jack Adams(jadams@futurenet.com)
Subject: How important is nitrogen packing, anyway?
I'm wondering how important it is to nitrogen pack stuff if it is going to be opened up in 6-24 months and eaten anyway? Couldn't I just keep it in the basement in the sacks it came in and it would keep fine?
Jack
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Date: August 04, 1997 03:26 PM
Author: Al Durtschi(mark@waltonfeed.com)
Subject: Is nitrogen packing necessary for short term storage?
Jack,
My opinion is that if you have a cool, dry, insect free place to store your food for, say two years, as you mentioned, that you don't need to nitrogen pack it.
Al
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Date: August 06, 1997 07:24 PM
Author: David(dbeard@duncanw.com)
> Jack,
>
> My opinion is that if you have a cool,
> dry, insect free place to store your food for,
> say two years, as you mentioned, that you don't
> need to nitrogen pack it.
>
> Al
The key there is cool, and insect free. I've always stored foods, and cool extends the storage life, though a lot of dried foods do OK in heat for a couple of years.
But insects. In my climate (Southeast), there's not a pantry in the world that will keep out meal-moths. So get heavy plastic or glass, air-tight containers. I lost a lot of flour and rice before I gave up the fight. Also, I store some of Al's whole grains out in the barn with the rats and other critters. Trust me, nothing is going to eat through those pails. David PS: If you're picking up flour, meals, cereals, etc. at the supermarket, freeze them in the deep freeze for three or four days. Especially if buying in the summer. Then repackage in airtight containers, and examine them in three weeks for insect infestations. Zero degree freezing will kill the bugs, but not the eggs. Just another happy thought. (http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1106)
Date: August 20, 1997 01:15 AM
Author: Jeff Naylor(wheekler@aol.com)
Subject: Bugs, heat and vacuum packing
I discussed some of the above topics and my prior experiences with our (soon to be departing) lab and QC manager. I also have some experience with nitro flushing and vacuum packing from the coffee industry which, while different, has some applicability to these discussions.
1) Heat will make eggs hatch. The company I worked for distributed spices and pancake mixes as well as selling coffee. Every summer when the temperature got above 90 for an extended period, we could look at certain spices on our shelves and our route drivers would return bottles where the eggs had hatched, and the bugs were running rampant in the jars. The pancake mixes (flour from wheat) suffered from the same problem, only they were packed in kraft bags. The opened bag would either have cobwebs, or else some type of fly that could even bore its way out of the bag. (Yes, really.) Considering that I lived in the SF Bay area, where people frequently joke about the coldest summers they ever experienced, we didn't have a high average temperature near the bay. Imagine what Florida or Arizona would be like in comparison.
2) It is impossible to clean all eggs out of grain products. There are just too many cracks and crevices for the eggs to be laid in, and they can't all be removed. Remember in the examples above that the flour and spices in question had been "cleaned" prior to further processing and packaging, but this didn't eliminate the problem. In quality control work, at least in spices, the product "passes" if the allowable number of insect fragments, eggs, and other defects do not exceed the allowable percentage. (Yes, really.)
3) Nitrogen flushing followed by a 26 inch vacuum pressure evacuation of the container prior to sealing is about the best that you can do. Nitrogen was used in coffee to strip oxygen molecules from the product, and the evacuation of as much air as possible was a final step. Assuming comparable densities, there would be less air in a package with 5#'s of wheat versus 5#'s of golf balls, as the space between the golf balls would be impossible to completely evacuate (or the film would break). In comparable quantities of grain versus beans, grain would be better able to evacuate more air. Think of the brick packs of coffee that you may see, this is the concept you are striving for.
You will not get all of the air (oxygen) out. If you went from a low altitude to a high altitude this would be proven as the brick pack would soften a bit. (Used to drive our sales manager nuts.) Conversely, if you vacuumed the package at a high altitude and went to a lower altitude, the air inside would take up less volume and the package would get even tighter, possibly even break from the strain. Perhaps with some of these modern oxygen absorbers you could do better than the standard evacuation, but remember your altitude and where it was packed.
4) Moisture is still an issue. Our QC manager was more familiar with fresh vegetables than with dried grains and beans, but his reference point was around 9-10% moisture the possibility of mold and the related things that grow in it have a better chance of prospering. He even told me that the witch hunts in the early Americas may have been contributed to by a form of mold in wheat that has halucinogenic properties. (Yes, really.) Being in the dehydration business, product is occasionally packed off too wet (8-12% moisture). If we hold it too long before trying to rework it, the result is something you don't want to smell for too long. The mold grows in some rather pretty colors. Dessicants may be a good way to absorb excess moisture.
No food processor takes out more moisture than they have to, believe me. They buy weight, and what they recover in finished goods is what they get to sell. In meat packing we pumped to the allowable limit with cure, as water and salt were cheaper than ham muscles. We also put as much reground fat in as possible, we couldn't sell it to sandwich meat processors for as much as we could the finished hams. In coffee, at the end of the roast we would "quench" the roast with water when it reached its final temperature to add weight back as well as bring down the tempeture quickly. I've even heard of a large commercial roaster that added moisture back to ground coffee before the packaging machinery by conveying the coffee through an atomizer/misting apparatus (but Gary told us not to get sued so you'll never hear the name of the company from me).
Taking all of this into account, several things should be apparent:
Nitrogen flushing, maximum evacuation, and sealing with a good quality multiple layer vapor barrier package is an excellent start to a long term storage program. However, the storage area must be cool and not subject to hotter temperature fluctuations. It is possible that the packaging will have so little oxygen that whatever hatches will not live for long, but I would hate to take these precautions and then find out that this information was wrong. Excess moiture could be a problem in forming mold regardless of the precautions taken above.
All manufactured products conform to specifications, however at some point equipment needs calibration and maintenance, people make mistakes and somtimes the products that Mother Nature provides for us just don't cooperate in regards to density. Even with all of these factors accounted for, the package may be handled roughly just once and a small whole will develop that invalidates all of the vapor barrier characteristics of the film/bag. Also, most of the issues raised above will eventually cause product deterioration, etc., except that the food processor is not expecting the shelf life to be an issue, as the average purchaser is not expecting to put this product aside for possibly several years.
Ask lots of questions before you lay your money down, and don't be shy about asking for certifications from the seller, packaging supplier, etc., AS GARY EXPECTS US TO DO FROM OUR BANKS, BROKERS, ETC.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1650)
Date: August 21, 1997 01:19 PM
Author: Barbara(weigandt@gorge.net)
Subject: Questions for Geri about food storage
Dear Dr. Geri: First please let me thank you for the Personal Food Security program you sent to us - and for your thoughtful note that came with it. The program and suggestions are most valuable and will be a tremendous help to us as we continue to try to prepare for the eventualities.
At this time I would like to ask for your comments on some related aspects . At the Portland Preparedness Expo recently, I spoke with a lady who sells sprouting seeds and equipment as well as other storage foods such as grains and beans. She told me several things. Let me list them as follows:
1. It is a mistake to remove oxygen from stored packages or buckets of seeds, grains, beans, etc., because they breathe - they respire - and they require air/oxygen for that, or they become dead food. She said these foods breathe the oxygen and create carbon dioxide as their by-product. If deprived of air/oxygen, the foods will not sprout (grow) after a couple of years.
2. The lady said that nitrogen packing of seeds, grains or beans will do the same thing - cause sterility as far as sprouting goes (eventually), and less wholesomeness as far as other aspects of the foods are concerned.
3. I asked her why that would matter much if one were simply going to cook the item anyway. She thought it did matter - that vitamins and whatever other beneficial aspects of the food would be lessened or killed. She mentioned a recent study at their state university - Utah - where wheat so stored was found to be gluten-less when they tried to make bread with it.
4. They (she and her husband) pack their grains/beans/seeds in buckets and add a cup of diatomaceous earth (spelling?), mixed throughout the bucket. Supposedly, that earth product kills any bugs.
5. I asked if adding bay leaves to the stored grains/beans/seeds would protect that stored food from bugs. She said that any bugs would try to get away because they don't like the aroma, but the bugs would not be killed.
6. The lady also said that any stored food in buckets should be transferred to another bucket (poured into) every two years or so - to replenish the oxygen and to release the CO2.
7. They also sell hulless oats and hulless barley. The lady said that removing the hull from 'normal' oats or 'normal' barley destroys vital parts of the grains, so the grains, then, must be heated to very high temperatures to keep them from spoiling, but that they are then dead foods. Oat groats, oatmeal, 'normal' barley are all in that category. But their organic barley and oats are a hulless variety - non-hybrid - and do not suffer the same fate as their counterparts. I don't know what this means for other grains with hulls. I know buckwheat has a hull, and there must be others. I guess I need the hull (whole!, smile) story. I would certainly appreciate any comments you care to make regarding the above remarks. And perhaps you know of a source for this 'diatomaceous' earth. I do recall seeing it advertised somewhere. I will pay attention next time.
In addition, I would also appreciate the Non-hybrid article you wrote. I did order the "Seed to Seed" book you recommended just after hearing your Dr. Gary North audio interview. (I haven't read it yet - but at least we have it for when there is more time for those important things). Thank you so much.
Sincerely, Barbara. .
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1696)
Date: August 22, 1997 04:46 PM
Author: Geri Guidetti(arkinst@concentric.net)
First,Barbara, it was a pleasure working with/for you. Now, to some of those questions:
No, the seeds, grains, beans do not become dead food when the oxygen is removed. In fact, according to the National Seed Storage Laboratory in Fort Collins, CO--our official national seed bank--research shows no measurable difference in seed/grain viability whether stored in in air, CO2, N2, or vacuum. If sufficiently dried, all of these seeds are effectively dormant to the point that the surrounding gas mix, or lack thereof, is insignificant to storage. Note, too, that we are talking viability, here--the ability for the seed to grow after storage.
Now, the presence of air with its high O2 content will eventually cause beans to harden, but if kept in cold or freezing temperatures and DRY, they should be viable for germination for many years. They will, however, take longer to cook.
2. No. The lady (I'm sorry) was wrong. N2 will not cause sterility according to the Nat'l Seed Storage Lab. I know of no negative effects of N2 on nutritional value. In fact, the displacement of O2 by N2 extends the seeds' lives because it prevents harmful oxygenation. N is a critical component of all cells, so is not foreign to the food grains.
3. It would be interesting to see a study that claimed gluten was destroyed by N packing. Interesting, indeed. Gluten proteins contain nitrogen as an integral part of their molecules. I know of no biochemical mechanism that would cause the presence of high N2 gas in an intact seed's environment that would cause the decomposition of gluten proteins. Heat could do it. Maybe they heated it!
4. Diatomaceous earth is merely the dead carcusses of microscopic protozoans, cells with ornate, pointed, sharp, almost glass-like "shells" when they are dried. They are components of toothpaste --the grit that cleans your teeth--compounding waxes for autos, etc. They are dangerous to soft-bodied intsects who end up impaling themselves on the glassy spikes and protrusions of these pretty "shells". Now, the insects that frequent grains and beans generally fall into beetle and larva categories. Larvae are susceptible to death by diatom, but hard-covered beetles are not. Diatmaceous earth is good to sprinkle on the ground around prize plants when slugs and snails are feasting on them. It pierces their soft little bellies and makes them die :).
BTW, diatomaceous earth is harvested from states where oceans used to be present. My geology is really rusty, so I can't tell which states those are, anymore.
5. I agree with her on the bay leaves. The bugs don't like them, but it is not a foolproof solution. We need as close to foolproof as we can get.
6. No. No. No.
7. Okay, hulless barley and NAKED oats. The tough hulls that adhere to barley and oats have made them nearly impossible for self-sufficiency folks to grow for their own food UNTIL the hulless varieties became more widely available again. For a long time, they seem to have disappeared, though it is thought that they were commonly available a long time ago. I grow both. I have recommended a hulless oat variety to many of you who have had me work up Personal Food Security Programs. These are great seeds. You can literally rub the hull off between two fingers if the seeds don't just fall out on their own.
Now, I'll share a big secret with you. Got to a good health food store. Go to the rack that sells commercially bagged grains. Arrowhead Mills is an example. You will find hulless (really "naked", Avena nuda) oats, hulless barley, rye, etc. Turn over the bag and see if it says "organically grown, nitrogen packed" Bingo!!
Your grain storage worries are over IF you store them in an airtight/rat proof container. In the freezer is best. If you want them for seed as well as eating, test-germinate a few. Sprout 100 seeds between sheets of moist paper towel on plate tucked into a loose plastic bag on top of the fridge. After all that are going to sprout do so, count them. If 86 sprout, its germination rate is 86%. That's good. Store them well.
Okay, your last comment. I believe I sent you my new article on Non-hybrid seeds by now, Barbara. If not, email me again. For others: email me with Non-hybrid article written in the subject box. For a catalog, put "catalog" in the subject...Geri Guidetti, arkinst@concentric
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=1723)
Date: September 22, 1997 09:37 PM
Author: Bob(bob@webposition.com)
Subject: Storing cool
We're buying a farm with a very large barn. We may have a good number of family members wanting to store food with us. I live in Missouri where the summers often get into the 90's for weeks at a time.
If I buy nitrogen packed food supplies will they be alright in the barn? Will they stay cool enough?
How about storing seeds? I'm going to put seeds in the freezer but I'm not sure how much of my freezer that's going to take to store seeds for a 40 acre farm or to feed a family of say 15.
We're looking into having a company put in an 8x12 cellar (I think that was the size, it may have been smaller) but I have my doubts on how much we can store there if we want to store both food & seeds for a number of family members and foods from our harvest. I really have no idea of the space requirements and am looking for suggestions.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=2989)
Date: September 23, 1997 01:44 AM
Author: Al Durtschi(mark@waltonfeed.com)
Subject: Storing your stuff in the barn.
>If I buy nitrogen packed food supplies will they be alright
>in the barn? Will they stay cool enough?
You certainly can store your stuff in the barn but the warmer it is the less time it will remain viable. If it gets as warm as you say for months at a time you may very well want to build yourself some kind of underground shelter. You could start out by finding out just what your ground temp is by boring a hole 3 feet down and checking the temp down there. There are a lot of purists out there that say nothing less than 6 feet of dirt overhead will do, but, say, two feet is many degrees better than no feet.
>I'm going to put seeds in the freezer but I'm not sure how
>much of my freezer that's going to take to store seeds
>for a 40 acre farm or to feed a family of say 15.
This question could be answered much better by Geri Guidetti over in the gardening forum. If you haven't visited in there, you are missing one of the key ingredients to true food self sufficiency.
>I really have no idea of the space requirements and am
>looking for suggestions.
To give you a very basic idea of how much storage a year supply for one person takes, our packages run from 22 to 33 cubic feet. You mentioned that you might have a 8X12 foot cellar built. If your cellar was at least 6 feet high, you should be able to put away enough food for 10 people for a year and still have room for a small isle. As you want this room to be very dry, you want cement floors and not dirt. Dirt floors create a very moist environment.
It sounds like you already have your mind made up on what kind of underground storage space you want. For those of you who don't, check out http://waltonfeed.com/old/cellars.html for ideas.
Al
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Date: October 07, 1997 12:56 AM
Author: Monica George(monicageorge@usa.net)
Subject: Thanks Al!
I thought that I had looked through everything on your web site...there is always more...we have been laboring over this root cellar construction...thanks! Monica George
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=3705)
Date: October 04, 1997 01:23 PM
Author: Rocky(Rocky-b@usa.net)
Subject: food grade poly bags
Planning to put up bulk grains, etc. in used food grade buckets using dry ice.
I am not planning on using mylar bags, (expense) but is it best to use food grade poly bags?
If so... why?
Where is a good place to get such bags?
If using such bags, how should they be left in the bucket, loose, with the edges coming out of the bucket, some other way?
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=3553)
Date: October 07, 1997 12:20 AM
Author: Al Durtschi(mark@waltonfeed.com)
Subject: Not just any bags will do.
>...is it best to use food grade poly bags?
There are a couple of things you need to watch out for here. Many trash bags are sprayed with an insecticide and you surely don't want to use these. The other thought is, just like the non-food grade buckets, if it is the wrong kind of plastic, the strong smell of the plastic, over time, could permeate your food and give it a plastic flavor.
Do any of you know where to get inexpensive food grade plastic bags large enough to fit into a bucket???
Al
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=3699)
Date: October 07, 1997 12:29 AM
Author: Will Richards(Will_richards@hotmail>com)
Subject: Bags
Dr. Al, Bags are hard to find. I looked into food grade and mylar. It seems that unless you want thousands no one wants to sell.
I should also like to mention that after buying and inspecting your bags it is my opinion that they are the best bags I have ever seen.
PS Here is a fun project to do with the kids. Take a waltons mylar bag, an old peice of iron, a small amount of sulfuric acid. Poor the acid on the iron, capture the fumes in the bag, and release. Guess what happens and why. Be careful with the acid, and please don't allow your kids to do this alone.
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=3700)
Date: October 07, 1997 01:03 AM
Author: Monica George(monicageorge@usa.net)
Subject: Heat seal the mylar bags?
I have looked and looked for a "Seal A Meal" sort of thing that can be used to melt the top of the mylar bag, once filled, to seal it. I have used a heat sealer at work for packaging before but I cannot buy one of those. They are very expensive. The Mormons have a cannery in the area and will can what I bring (or I can buy some of their products) for .60 per can...
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=3706)
Date: October 07, 1997 01:06 AM
Author: Bea Richards(Will_richards@hotmail>com)
Subject: heat sealing
Craft and hobie stores sell mylar irons
(http://garynorth.entrewave.com/forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=3708)